I responded to Chris's reply, but I tried just pushing the "reply to sender" button, and I now realize that it sent the message only to Chris and not to the group. So I'm replaying the message here. Please remember that Chris has again responded to me and it may not have made sense to those of you who didn't see my original message. So next is the original message, then after that is my response to Chris's response.

Thanks Chris for your response. You ask very good questions. I believe that all pain (and in fact all good and bad) can be described from the viewpoint of order. I, like you, initially believed that my approach was simplistic, but now I have been able to resolve all conflicts in every situation that I have been able to think about. It is all a matter of perspective.

Earlier I said that Jef had made me angry while watching his show. I have spent a lot of time analyzing myself to understand where that anger came from and why. The anger comes, because I see people talking about important issues, but without a unified approach at looking at the cosmos, everyone is just guessing, to some extent. What angers me is that I have a model that allows us all to work together toward common goals, but until I get this thing accepted within science, then each of us must speak, to some extent, from only our narrow viewpoint. So everything that I say in regards to pain and order, will only make sense if you take the time to understand the physical model that I have proposed that not only describes pain and human consciousness but also describes a model of cosmology and the workings of all physical systems.

Remember, my model shows that order is increasing in any universe and, in fact, each particle gains more order as its energy is changed, over time, from mass to connections of gravity. Each new connection represents more order, and in fact, each universe is increasing in order because new connections are continually being made. When you have a new thought, doesn't that represent more order in your mind?

The human mind represents a high degree of order. The models we make in our mind are made of many connections of gravity that change as our models change. Since the connections of gravity make all real space that we know, our bodies have learned how to tell us when our space has been invaded. Stick a pin in your finger and you feel pain because you have interrupted the connections of gravity and because the pin has compromised your space. All sickness and disease are similar things. The virus creates gravionic fields which are not compatible with your own. All feelings are thus the result of measuring these connections to determine if your space is intact. This is why you feel bad when you are sick. Your connections of gravity are being interrupted by the disease and this takes from the energy stored within those connections.

Emotions are also "shapes" or types of space. If we look at the unified equation E=gmc^2, we see that all things that exist are made of these elements. A new particle in a new universe would be almost all mass with a small portion of gravity while particles in a black hole would be almost all gravity with a little bit of mass to hold things together. But the point is that each different ratio of energy in systems, generates different kinds of mass, different kinds of energy, and different kinds of gravions (or space). Thus a human emotion represents a type of gravity which is making a specific kind of space for each emotion. Since the energy of gravity is not completely contained within the "body" of a being, our emotions spill out around us and this is one of the ways that animals and other human beings "pick up" on these emotions. We have connections of gravity between us that allows us to "share" the space of these emotions.

So if we look at things from an overall viewpoint, we see that each universe is increasing in order and that we are the continuation of that process. Thus all good things (from a single perspective) are those things which bring more order to that viewpoint. It is good from the viewpoint of the snake to eat a mouse, because the mouse will give the snake more order, yet the mouse may have a different perspective. A good person is one who brings more order to his family, his city, his state, his country, his world, his universe, or to the cosmos in general. So I do believe that all pain is a mark of disorder for that individual and that good feelings come from making more order.

To follow this to the extreme, then God represents all order and the devil merely represents disorder to me.

Now each occurrence of disorder might not lead to pain, because we might not be aware of the disorder or may see it in a light that is not proper. And please remember, that I think entropy is decreasing. If I haven't answered this sufficiently, then e-mail back and I'll try again.

micromike

Now the new response.

I really don't see any difference in the two questions. All systems are self-referencing. A black hole (little or big) is a physical system. All black holes define everything within their gravitational reach by the total set of gravions that make up the system. That is the basic job of the advertising gravions. They expand out from all objects in the looping fashion shown by string mathematics and they define the space for all objects.

Let us step back and look at the Milky Way and the black hole at its center and examine the totality of the system it represents. Current science tends to indicate that 90% of the matter in the MW is "dark matter." Science is now looking around everywhere to find particles that don't "show themselves" when the gravionic model explains things very neatly. (My model does allow "unconnected particles" and I think a neutrino is probably one such particle. It represents an unpaired system, which means the particle has no gravions. That is why it must physically touch another mass to interact, because it can't interact with the gravions that make space between masses. In some ways these particles meet the definition of an entire universe by themselves, because they are real (they have energy some stored as mass and some stored as gravity), but they have no connections to the rest of the galaxy.) But most particles are connected and thus their gravity does show in the total gravity of the galaxy. So where is this mass? It has already gone down the drain. It is in the black hole(s) at the center of the galaxy. If you understand what I have said before, then you must realize that these particles have already had most of their energy converted from mass to gravity. They now just reach out and define the space of the galaxy. The particles themselves only represent a place for gravity to connect. Our sun is connected to the black hole at the center of our galaxy, or it wouldn't be orbiting the black hole. If 90% of the matter has gone done the drain, then that means that our galaxy if very old. I'm sure that it is more than 50 billion years old, and maybe much older than that. Under my model, black holes represent God's recycling center, as this material has been used and is basically sitting around waiting for the next big bang to release it.

One way that I have explained the ratios of energy in the unified equation E=gmc^2, is by telling you to hold up your left hand so that your thumb and forefinger make the letter L in front of you. The energy of the total system is represented by both fingers and would be contained within the L. The thumb would represent mass and the forefinger would represent the proportion of energy stored in gravity (or connections of gravity). In the beginning, a particle would look like a very squat L, in that the bottom part would be very long and you couldn't even see you forefinger unless you got a very big microscope. Particles in our part of the galaxy, look much like a regular L, because the energy is more evenly distributed between the two parts. Particles in a black hole, would have almost no "thumb" to them, since that energy has been extracted and converted to gravity (or space). This is dark matter. It is used matter. (I used to feel sorry for this material because from our viewpoint that material can spend an eternity in a black hole. But then I realized, from the viewpoint of the particles in the black hole, they are just there a moment.)

So back to you and your Russian friend. There is no problem about "something from nothing." In an infinite cosmos, there is always more material to get trapped in a black hole. Once the black hole surpasses its limit, that material is recycled to be used over again in other universes. The black hole has to come from somewhere, and it comes from the energy of the masses that have been trapped by its gravity system. Remember that each black hole is a frame of reference for all gravitational system that have connections of gravity. All space is local, in that it comes from the definition caused by the total connections of gravity within that system. All systems should be defined by gravity, but "modern" science basically ignores the role of gravity, accept at large scales. The gravionic model merely states that we need to consider gravity first, in order to understand any system.

As to your second model, you state "These systems tend toward continuance though confirmation of established points of reference." Isn't that what I said? : ) (By the way, you can put a smiley face after most things I write.) Some connections within any system are always "self" gravions which define the oneness of the object. The advertising gravions reach out and define the space of the object. (Actually, I think what is now called the strong force, may be the part of the system that "pushes" out the advertising gravions which are what current science calls gravity.) So all systems are self related and "move" space as they move. The points of reference are always mass and the relationships of these points are always gravity. Information doesn't have weight, but it does have gravity. The reason that self referencing systems have a gravitic center, is because of the connections of gravity that propagate at C^2 throughout the entire system, keeping the whole system updated on the status of gravity, which is every connection between every mass of the system. Philosophically, this must happen first within any system.

Gravity wells never reach infinity. They can only reach C^2. Once a gravity well pulls enough energy out of the mass, there is no where left to connect gravity and the system comes apart. So I disagree that the system is something from nothing. I disagree that the system can approach an infinite gravity well. The problem always comes from trying to imagine this system all by itself, because in the real world, no system is left alone for long, once you consider the infinite model I have proposed. The only self-referent system processing ever going on is the by the connections of gravity. All physical systems appear the same to me. They define their own space. They measure other systems by the connections of gravity. They are all made by masses of varying ratios of energy connected by various kinds of connections of gravity. They are all self referencing.

Like I said earlier, I wish that I could spend a day or two discussing these issues with you. I feel so inadequate trying to explain these things in writing, when I can do so much better in person, but as long as you honestly want me to explain something, then I will try.